Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby sniperkill » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:29 am

So whats going on with the availability of this kit? Im very interested in ordering one. How much are they, and whats the turn around time?

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tagdagger
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby tagdagger » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:45 am

I'm not publicly listing prices yet. Anyone interested in a kit can PM me for the current cost. The cost went up a little from the 1st batch,but is still 30% lower than it eventually will be. The Maddog version of kit is even less in cost, but you will need to contact Maddog for the cost of a stock.
Next batch will be 12 kits. 5 people are currently on the list. Hope to have them ready by the end of January.
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby tagdagger » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:50 pm

coors wrote:The air from the 9-slots on the new barrel mount overcomes the spring and powerwheel, using the rubber washer as a seal, I believe. In my opinion, to use the 9-slots effectively there needs to be both an external and internal o-ring on the rear barrel bushing (like OEM.) Tonight I finished turning and drilling the sleeve for blocking the front 6-ports: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pt1mwvpjsm54kr9/longbarrelmount.jpg?dl=0 Will try to test tomorrow, to see if there is clipping, etc.
Again, in my opinion, the longer slotted barrel mount with the 6-ports closed off is pretty quiet. But getting my microlite bullpup as quiet as possible is not really my objective, for now. Rather it's to make this gun as accurate as possible. My thought is that getting the rapidly expanding air behind the pellet to divert away from the pellet, even for a very short time period will help to produce more accuracy. I already have 8-holes drilled in the frame, just ahead of the rear bushing. I want to drill 8 more holes, just behind the endcap, but I'm planning to eventually use a TT-shroud, with a longer barrel, and I don't know how long the portion of that shroud is that goes inside the frame. when I get that measurement I'll drill 8 more holes. This gun, using the shorter barrel mount and internal baffle/insert is already producing 5-shot groups of 3/4" at 50 yards (H&N Baracudas.) The Baracudas, in my opinion, are not ideal for hunting or dispatching animals. The H&N Grizzly pellets are ideal though, in my opinion. Here's 2x videos to reiterate that point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwGshuloADc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpm3xeKEab8




It seems like you may be getting to much dwell time from your valve. Next time you shoot down your psi and can drain your tank remove the valve and make sure the valve retention nut hasn't unscrewed.
If there isn't enough back pressure from the valve spring to close the valve quickly after each shot then to much air escapes and that will reek havoc with your accuracy and bell curve( fps spread per shot)
Same thing can happen if the top hat gap is to much.

With unregulated guns best accuracy,fps spread,and shot count is achieved with a quick dwell time for the valve and just enough air per shot to efficiently launch the pellet without wasting air. Its tempting to try and get more fps with more air, that will also produce the previously mentioned negative affects. With a talonP and a .25 cal 12'' barrel about 800fps is the max you can shoot efficiently without wasting air and effecting accuracy.

More fps/fpe is best produced with longer barrels, letting the longer dwell time in the barrel produce the energy.
Anyway, just some things to consider.

Next time your inside the valve make sure the valve spring is pushed tight against the valve seal. If the valve spring is weak or damaged replace it and see if things improve.
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:53 pm

Thank you for posting that, Dave! You definitely seem to see all the way through my babble right to the heart of the issue. I did get to shoot 2x 5-shot groups with the Grizzlies. Both were 2 1/4" @ 50 yards. I'll have to shoot the Baracudas again, to determine if there's clipping, or not. According to the "TNT Gothic Airgunner" fellow, the H&N Grizzly "pellets" seem to like just over 1000 fps (BTW that's an interesting and extremely knowledgable guy, concerning shooting.) I haven't chronographed the Grizzly ammo yet, but I doubt if I can get 870 fps with the 12" barrel and Talon-P valve. You're right, a 24" .25 cal. barrel, minus the choke portion, is on my mind.

*Update* I've done a lot of changing the tophat gap since I got the Talon-P. Everytime that I chronograph the gun the velocity avererage would drop. On friday, Jan, 1st, I chronographed the H&N Baracudas and they were averaging 855-fps for 5 -shots. I looked down the valve stem opening and apparently the thin wall of the stem was getting crushed inward every time that I retightened the 2x tophat screws and this was really constricting the flow of air. To make a long story short, I turned (on a mini-lathe) a new one piece valve-stem (tophat.) I drilled it lengthwise to .220" and instead of 2x intake ports, in the rear, I gave it 3x (like Dyotat does): https://www.dropbox.com/s/1icbiofhg7ddssd/valvestem.jpg?dl=0 I'll try to test it as soon as possible. This time of year there is not much light late in the evening, so the chronograph doesn't work.

*Update #2* The 1-piece valve-stem that I made seems to be a success. Now, 5-shots average 882 fps for Baracuda 31.02s and 878 fps for H&N Grizzly 30 g. This is at PW 6.5. However, the gun is now using 150-psi per shot, whereas the gun was using 90-psi per shot with the OEM valve-stem/tophat, @ PW 6.5. I'm not certain what this means, yet, but maybe it's just a limitation of the 12" barrel. Another problem arose and it ended my shooting session. The little, soft, white seal in the quick fill nipple pinched again, as it has several times now, between the stem and seat. This time it put a big crack in the seal. I just found the smallest o-ring that I could find, from my collection, and installed it. It seems to hold air fine, for now. This has been an ongoing problem since I've had the Talon-P (about a month, now.) I'm thinking about ordering one of the Chinese fill ports, as the "check valve" design looks like it would be much more reliable, to me.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:02 pm

:hoot:


Reference "Update #2"

The TalonP is advertised as a 50 fpe gun with the OEM full flow valve, and by your observation using 90 psi per shot, which gives the shooter 11 shots shooting from 3000 down to 2000 psi.

882 fps with 31.2gr Barracudas equals 53.5 fpe, so a modest increase in power is achieved. However, at 150 psi per shot, considering shooting from 3000 down to 2000 psi allows for 6.5 shots per fill. I could live with this if I were to obtain 60+ fpe, but the efficiency seems to have been severely impacted. Further, I'm puzzled by the loss of 4 fps when shooting a pellet 1.02gr lighter than the Barracudas.

It would seem you are "dumping" a lot of air that somehow is not being utilized to propel the pellet. Are you losing "blowby" air at the tophat/breech interface? Where's all that extra air going? Or...is the duration of the tophat valve stem opening continuing to release air long after the pellet has left the muzzle? That would make sense to me.


Hoot:

PS: Are you using a heavier hammer weight and/or stronger spring? This could account for excess air dumping after the pellet exited the muzzle.
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:50 pm

I don't think that the new valve-stem is leaking air during the shot. Right off I put a piece of tissue over the breech and fired the gun to check this. No movement there. However, that might not be the only test. I did hit the OEM valve-stem specifications very closely, even though my machining skills are very wanting, yet. The finish is full of grooves. i have a lot to learn, but at least I've finally jumped in and gotten my feet wet.
I'm guessing that the H&N Grizzly pellets have more bore contact (friction) than the H&N Baracudas do. Also, the manufacturer's specified weight isn't exactly on the mark with the Baracudas, so I suspect the same with the Grizzlies. I do believe earlier in this thread I shared my findings with the Baracuda weights, but maybe I posted that elsewhere. Anyways, to rehash, I used a very accurate type of scale to make measurements. An RCBS beam-type reloader's scale. I pulled 5 random pellets from the Baracuda's tin and weighed them. 30.65, 30.5, 31.1, 31.275, 31.11. Then I pulled 11 more out of the tin and weighed these 16 pellets together. That weight was 494.25. Divided by 16 the average weight was 30.927. Though this is not far off the claimed 31.02, it's nevertheless off. My experience with measuring JSB pellets, in .22 and .177, is that the manufacturer's claimed weight is spot on or almost exactly spot on. I've yet to weigh the Grizzly pellets.
No, I am using the OEM spring, hammer and hammer weight. Though I'm considering buying the various springs and hammers that I've been looking at, to experiment with. I really think, right now, that if I put the .20 cal., 22" barrel back on this gun, I'd far exceed the 1088.5 fps average, on PW 8, that I was getting with the OEM valve-stem using a 22.005 grain avg. weight projectile.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:44 pm

I don't know how I got it in my head that the H&N Grizzly pellets were supposed to weigh 30 grains, but indeed they are supposed to weigh 31 grains. I just weighed 5 random pellets ..30.84, 31.1, 30.55, 31.175 and 31.1. I added 11 more Grizzly pellets and 16 of these weighed 496.34 grains. Divided by 16 these pellets came to an avg. weight of 31.02125 grains. That makes my friction theory complete rubbish. Anyways I certainly enjoyed the break in the severe cold weather, today. I shot some 50 yard groups with the H&N Grizzlies and they are grouping an inch or better. I'm looking forward to seeing what these can do through a longer barrel

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby tagdagger » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:19 pm

Great job on the valve stem. Very nice :D
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:25 pm

Thanks, Dave! I took it out tonight and polished and opened the rear ports up a little. Now, even with the short barrel mount and short insert the greater amount of air is blowing the rubber washer rearwards and it's hanging up in the front of the PW port (just like it did with the the long barrel mount.) I'm going to try to add o-rings to the rear barrel bushing to stop this. Here's another image of this valve-stem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/athg1tgaaycju4l/polish-port.jpg?dl=0

*Edit* Thursday evening I turned a groove for an external o-ring on the rear barrel bushing. Friday evening I tested it and the PW was still traveling rearward with each shot. The rubber gasket hung up 2 or 3 times during my shooting, maybe 20 shots. However, the rubber gasket was now hanging up on it's extreme outward area of the circumference. This was an improvement. So I took it all apart again and there was a lead dust flow on the inner portion of the barrel bushing. So I went to work and and fabricated, from a broken tool and a piece of handsaw blade, a custom boring bar for cutting the inner o-ring groove. I intentionally made it to use with the lathe in reverse, so I could easily see what I was doing while I worked. I tested this complete inner/outer o-ringed rear barrel bushing today, Saturday, and the gun now funtions perfectly with absolutely no PW rearward movement at all. Here's some more boring pics to look at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ln3snroc6msm30q/o-ring_tools.JPG?dl=0 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/lee6l50ee3agjwk/o-rings.JPG?dl=0 Also, I think that the gun is shooting even quieter now, too.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:10 pm

:hoot:

My stock is done. Now the install of the "kit". Hope to have the TalonPuP in my hands by early next week.


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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:32 pm

Ok, I decided to cut the .20 cal barrel back to 15 5/8" so that it all fits inside the Talon-P frame. This allows about 1" or so of space from the endcap. It's very quiet like this, but I'll try to make a modified endcap to quiet it some more: https://www.dropbox.com/s/feakwqdkjgo86er/20cal.jpg?dl=0 I also made a new valve stem for the .20-cal barrel. It's bored 4.8mm (.189") and also incorporates the 3x intake holes. I removed the hammer weight and I've been shooting 13.73 grain JSB Exacts at the 900 fps level. This gives 24.7 fpe at the muzzle. It still retains 10.82 fpe at 100 yards. At 50 yards it will only group 1", no better. The 12" .25 cal will group 3/4" at 50 yards. Anyways, at 100 yards it will hit the end of a 16 oz can almost everytime. This is a far cry from the accuracy that a fellow in a video, recently made, where he shoots a .20 cal Edgun Lelya at 100 yards. I don't remember what his targets were, but they were tiny by comparison.
Hoot wrote somewhere, recently, that for every inch of barrel length that a potential of 25-50 fps gain exists. The 12" .25 cal barrel in this Talon-P Microlite Bullpup Kit gives 882 fps avg. w/ Baracudas or 878 fps with Grizzly pellets. If the 15 5/8" barrel that's now in this gun were .25 cal. then, if what Hoot says is true, at the minimum increase of 25 fps for each inch it would give 64.43 fpe w/ the Grizzly pellets. I find that interesting.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:43 pm

:hoot:


Be sure to let us know what fps is achieved. That figure of 25 - 50 fps has been bandied about on this forum for years. I don't know if anyone ever really checked it. I've heard the gain can be as little as 10 fps...I guess it depends on the caliber, gun, mods, setup, etc...



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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby LEE IN VA. » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:36 am

Hoot wrote::hoot:

My stock is done. Now the install of the "kit". Hope to have the TalonPuP in my hands by early next week.


Hoot:


Okay Hoot, Do you have the gun and any data for us yet?

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:32 pm

:hoot:


Yes....received the gun. Air pressure gauge was 1500 psi off...so I don't think any chrony results will be valid until I get the replacement air gauge on and know what psi I'm shooting at.

Reference adding the 16" barrel...it fits and works fine with the MicroLite kit. The muzzle sits 1.5" back from the end of the TalonP frame. Unfortunately, the longer barrel does not permit the MicroLite sound suppression system to work at peak efficiency. It helps...but the longer barrel changes the air flow in his quieting design...it helps...but it's not fully "neighbor friendly", as the 12" barrel might be.

Neil Clague is going to make me a 9" X 1.75" grub-screw attached slide-in LDC. By using this open shroud to open LDC tube method of attachment, there is no restriction as with an adapter, and I get absolute maximum shroud volume for expansion. I believe with the 12" barrel, the MicroLite and Hagan/Donnyfl combo should be plenty quiet. But when I went with the longer barrel, the air flow/pressure dynamics changed quite a bit!

I blew the factory end cap off twice, and the Hagan adapter off once, and had to put in a longer/deeper grub screw to keep everything in place. Don't let anyone tell you 4" additional barrel length does not make a difference. The velocity and muzzle pressure is increased substantially, and no matter who you get your LDC from, Donny or Neil, I strongly recommend you go at least 8" to 9" in length! Personally, I'm also going with the 1.75" diameter because the added cost was very minimal, and my neighbors have high powered hearing aids. The 1.5" diameter, in the proper length, would probably do just fine, but I'm taking no chances!

When Neil's LDC arrives, I'll do a proper write up, with pics and readings. Then you can make an informed decision on what mods or changes you might like to try. Just give me a little more time, and I'll possibly save you some money in the long run, and you'll know ahead of time what results each change will produce in real time.


Hoot:
Last edited by Hoot on Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby LEE IN VA. » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:46 pm

Yeah, I'm set up for a kit from David but was hoping to find a used gun by now but no luck there. I ran across Doug on Facebook and he told me he knows many tricks for tuning these guns.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby coors » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:47 pm

That's some very interesting things that you wrote, Hoot. I'm looking forward to seeing your numbers and finding out what that 1 3/4" LDC does to the gun's report. You certainly have to have 60+ fpe coming out of that setup.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:24 pm

:hoot:

Weather permitting, I'll try to post some pics and results tomorrow. I'll have to use a low power wheel setting but at least people can get a look at the base setup and some preliminary results. It may take a few weeks for Neil to get the LDC ready...he's a very busy man, and people are in line in front of me, so I'll wait my turn.



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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby LEE IN VA. » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Hoot wrote::hoot:

Weather permitting, I'll try to post some pics and results tomorrow. I'll have to use a low power wheel setting but at least people can get a look at the base setup and some preliminary results. It may take a few weeks for Neil to get the LDC ready...he's a very busy man, and people are in line in front of me, so I'll wait my turn.



Hoot:


Any results Hoot? My kit and gun are on the way, I'll have mine together this,weekend hopefully.

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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby Hoot » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:55 pm

LEE IN VA. wrote:Any results Hoot?




:hoot:


Image



Image



Image



Image




16" Barrel fits 1.5" inside the shroud. Plenty of room for the endcap/ldc/adapter...whatever I decide to use.

MicroLite and Maddog stock are to die for. Flawless perfection! 27" of perfect fit. 6 lbs and balance is perfect!


Hoot:
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Re: Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP

Postby LEE IN VA. » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:48 pm

Looks good!


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